catallaxy files

catallaxy in technical exile

Justice in Iraq II

with 64 comments

Two military detainees were “placed in cells at Compound 5, the high-security unit where Saddam Hussein has been held.” Their “legal rights, laid out in a letter from Lt. Col. Bradley J. Huestis of the Army, the president of the status board, allowed them to attend the hearing and testify. However, under Rule 3, the letter said, ‘You do not have the right to legal counsel, but you may have a personal representative assist you at the hearing if the personal representative is reasonably available.’

First Lt. Lea Ann Fracasso is a “spokeswoman for the Pentagon’s detention operations in Iraq.” The detainees “were permitted [to attend] their hearings only because they were Americans, Lieutenant Fracasso said. The cases of all other detainees are reviewed without the detainees present, she said. In both types of cases, defense lawyers are not allowed to attend because the hearings are not criminal proceedings, she said.”

“At the hearings, a woman and two men wearing Army uniforms but no name tags or rank designations sat a table with two stacks of documents. One was about an inch thick, and the men were allowed to see some papers from that stack. The other pile was much thicker, but they were told that this pile was evidence only the board could see.”

“Five times in the first week, guards shackled the prisoners’ hands and feet, covered their eyes, placed towels over their heads and put them in wheelchairs to be pushed to a room with a carpeted ceiling and walls. There they were questioned by an array of officials who, they said they were told, represented the F.B.I., the C.I.A., the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and the Defense Intelligence Agency.”

Both detainees were innocent and were arrested after one “pass[ed] information to the F.B.I. about suspicious activities at the Iraqi security firm where he worked, including what he said was possible illegal weapons trading.” That individual was held 97 days before he was released. He was a Navy veteran. The other was held for close to 50 days, the last 18 of which were after the “detention board met again, without either man present, and determined that [he] was ‘an innocent civilian’.”

“The fluorescent lights in [the first detainee’s] cell were never turned off, he said. At most hours, heavy metal or country music blared in the corridor. He said he was rousted at random times without explanation and made to stand in his cell. Even lying down, he said, he was kept from covering his face to block out the light, noise and cold.”

Michael Moss, New York Times, Former U.S. Detainee in Iraq Recalls Torment, 18 December 2006

(Yes, for those who think the messenger might be to blame, this is the same Michael Moss, whose credibility no doubt will be determined by the responses these stories generate.)

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Written by Admin

December 19, 2006 at 10:52 pm

Posted in Uncategorized

64 Responses

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  1. From Udai Hussein’s cattle prod to fluorescent lights.

    God, we’ve utterly failed.

    C.L.

    December 19, 2006 at 11:11 pm

  2. Udai was a monster. Had he taken over from his father, I shudder to think what Iraq might have gone through.

    Yay, the US authorities are lesser monsters. Actually not even monsters, just justice-averse torturing fuckwits. “We” are not as bad as the worst humanity has to offer. Praise be.

    fatfingers

    December 19, 2006 at 11:31 pm

  3. Less than one presidential term after the invasion and still no British justice system.

    It’s truly appalling.

    C.L.

    December 19, 2006 at 11:43 pm

  4. ..and the incessant music..carpet on the walls and ceiling…

    rog

    December 19, 2006 at 11:54 pm

  5. You break it, you buy it – what my mum used to say to me when I was a girlie.

    Arguing over the rights and wrongs of the original invasion is pointless. Tax-eating boondoggle that Iraq has undoubtedly become, I just can’t see how we can leave.

    You break it, you fix it. So we’d better get fixing…

    skepticlawyer

    December 20, 2006 at 12:04 am

  6. “Just Win Baby”

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 12:32 am

  7. “Less than one presidential term after the invasion and still no British justice system.”

    Yes, because all justice systems need to evolve over centuries from barbarism, there are no short cuts, and a better system can’t be imposed by conquerors and adopted immediately.

    Ignore that US re-wrote the constitution, re-worked the government, re-built the laws of Iraq to their liking. Clearly the subtext was “Don’t worry about it too much. Just work up to fair treatment and fair trials. Baby steps.”

    fatfingers

    December 20, 2006 at 1:17 am

  8. …all justice systems need to evolve over centuries from barbarism, there are no short cuts, and a better system can’t be imposed by conquerors and adopted immediately.

    Somebody inform the Japs.

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 1:22 am

  9. CL this is US justice not Iraqi

    Boris

    December 20, 2006 at 1:28 am

  10. Precisely. Well done. So you are abandoning your former sarcasm in deference to my trumping sarcasm, thereby admitting you are wrong?

    fatfingers

    December 20, 2006 at 1:29 am

  11. “Yes, because all justice systems need to evolve over centuries from barbarism, there are no short cuts, and a better system can’t be imposed by conquerors and adopted immediately.”

    There’s theory made on the spot for you.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 1:36 am

  12. While it might be true that the resources necessary to democratise these sons of Nebuchanezzer may be more then what its worth……..

    There is something more basic going on here.

    And that is the secret understanding of our forefathers that just sails over the understanding of us post-moderns.

    No Victory. No peace.

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3908/is_200401/ai_n9393660

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 1:50 am

  13. So you are abandoning your former sarcasm in deference to my trumping sarcasm, thereby admitting you are wrong?

    ?

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 2:04 am

  14. CL Are you suggesting current situation in Iraq is simialr to what was occurring in Japan or Germany in 1948?

    Boris

    December 20, 2006 at 2:24 am

  15. SL:
    >You break it, you fix it. So we’d better get fixing…

    The problem is SL, there is no viable plan to fix it. Other than “clap louder!”

    On another issue, I think ongoing debates – and there will be many more – around Iraq would be much better if we had a simple rule.

    I think the debaters should first establish roughly what their criteria for success or failure are, and some kind of time frame for either. That is, people in favour of the war should say at what point they might admit it a failure, and people against the war should likewise say when they will be forced to consider it a success.

    I was opposed to the war, but my criteria for success in Iraq is a stable democracy within 5 years, with at worst the levels of violence of say the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and a minimal troop presence – let’s say 50,000. Standards of living should be at least back to Saddam era levels. So that’s mid 2008. So far it’s tracking for a total failure, but I would prefer to be wrong.

    The point is not to debate these particular critieria. The point is really to see whether there are any circumstances in which your opponent is prepared to admit they were wrong! If not, then you know from the start there’s no point debating them.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 7:09 am

  16. “I was opposed to the war…”

    Thats because you are a sick callous bastard who marched downtown convinced that the Americans were going to steal oil.

    Victory is when the factions you back no longer fear random violence from the factions you don’t back.

    In this case pushing the violence outside of Iraqs borders would be good enough.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 7:47 am

  17. What were we wrong about Barnes you dope?

    We weren’t wrong about anything. The anti-war crowd were mindlessly wrong about everything from the start and has conducted political war against the American administration.

    The war has not and cannot be won until there is the recognition that the outside countries are murdering Iraqis and that this is not OK.

    Take them out of the picture and the war gets won pretty quickly.

    This is so fucking obvious that I’ll have to link to my thread on the matter.

    http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/war-and-occupation-in-richmond-melbourne/

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 7:54 am

  18. What were we wrong about Barnes you dope?

    We weren’t wrong about anything. The anti-war crowd were mindlessly wrong about everything from the start and has conducted political war against the American administration.

    The war has not and cannot be won until there is the recognition that the outside countries are murdering Iraqis and that this is not OK.

    Take them out of the picture and the war gets won pretty quickly.

    This is so obvious that I’ll have to link to my thread on the matter.

    http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/war-and-occupation-in-richmond-melbourne/

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 7:54 am

  19. GMB, again, under what possible circumstances would you admit the Iraq invasion as a failure?

    If you’re not prepared to admit it under any circumstances, or only under completely unreasonable ones, then we at least know something important about how desparately you’re prepared to cling to your beliefs. And how worthwhile it is discussing the subject with you.

    Judging by your strategic recommendations (ie to win Iraq, first reform the world banking system) it certainly seems that you don’t have much that’s realistic to say on the subject.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 8:21 am

  20. Its a failure now you dope.

    In that they aren’t winning.

    And they are not going to win unless they recognise that outsiders are at war with him.

    Stop being a fucking moron will you Barnes.

    I don’t think thats too much to ask.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 8:43 am

  21. You cannot be more purely idiotic then to say that ITS ME that has nothing realistic to say about this.

    Only a complete idiot would say that.

    What do we have here:

    “..it certainly seems that you don’t have much that’s realistic to say on the subject.”

    Wouldn’t you know. Its Barnes being a moron.

    What unrealistic is not realising the basic truth of what I’m explaining in my last link.

    You know whats the real reason all these people had to die?

    Its the willful stupidity that we are seeing here from you Barnes.

    I know this because I’ve been telling Americans this since mid-2003.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 8:47 am

  22. when the invasion was talked about I asked one simple question.

    What specific weapons did Saddam possess that threatened world peace indeed US Security.

    No Blogger, the PM nor could or would the White house answer this very simple question.

    On this basis it was rather quite easy to understand the invasion was not only illegal but a complete fraud.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 20, 2006 at 8:58 am

  23. GMB:
    >Its a failure now you dope.

    Great. At least we’ve got that out of you.

    >You know what’s the real reason all these people had to die? Its the willful stupidity that we are seeing here from you Barnes.

    Riiiightttt….The war’s failure, and the fact that “all these people have had to die”, is the ultimate responsibility of random internet commentators who correctly said it would be a failure, and not the responsibility of the people who advocated, supported, planned, and executed it, and incorrectly said it would be a success!

    GMB logic at its finest…;-)

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 9:07 am

  24. The key issue is put well by the WaPo’s William Arkin:

    “Will anyone get beyond the view that “we have to succeed” to actually ask the question as to whether it is possible or likely?”

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/12/failure_in_iraq_weve_already_f.html?nav=rss_blog

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 9:18 am

  25. The US is in a real pickle.

    They cannot leave but cannot stay.

    They need to find a way to show a failure is a success.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 20, 2006 at 9:32 am

  26. BBCLB:
    >The US is in a real pickle.

    A military giant with one foot in stuck in a meat grinder.

    >They need to find a way to show a failure is a success.

    Fear not! That daunting task will fall to the valiant legion of the 101st Keyboard Kommandos.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 9:38 am

  27. No, Boris, I’m suggesting that experts and “realists” were utterly and immovably convinced that Japs and Krauts were not culturally capable of orderly transition to modernity.

    Smart call.

    The critics of today’s war are invariably eager to pretend that of course Saddam was a big fat poo but – well – his rule was necessary for maintaining “stability”. (A.k.a. state terrorism that didn’t make the nightly news). Iraq was already broken and what you’re seeing today is the result of decades of Ba’athist oppression, tyranny and ineptitude. But why emphasise that when it’s so much easier to Blame Bush?

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 9:43 am

  28. That daunting task will fall to the valiant legion of the 101st Keyboard Kommandos.

    What does the Daily Kos have to do with this?

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 9:44 am

  29. CL:
    >What does the Daily Kos have to do with this?

    I think you are confusing the 101st Fighting Keyboard Kommandos with the so-called “Kossacks.” Why would Daily Kos would want pretend failure in Iraq was success?

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 10:10 am

  30. Who can fathom the reasoning on success and failure at the blog that gave the world Ned Lamont?

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 10:20 am

  31. Daniel.

    Can you just not be an idiot? Now I notice that somehow the lessons of my post have just sailed across your stupid head and you have chosen not to acknwowledge the reality in this link:

    And it is the failure to acknowledge this reality that is the reason all these people had to die.

    Its got nothing to do with random internet commentators. But it has everything to do with a shared attitude. An attiitude of thinking that things will go away if you only don’t acknowledge them.

    I’m not going to let you just get away with dodging this. It would be disrespectful to alll the people who are dying, because of the stupidity akin to the stupidity that we see from you here.

    So I am forced to cross-post:
    >>>>>
    “War And Occupation In Richmond Melbourne

    Imagine all the money that terrorist states make with selling oil.

    Now imagine that you give that money to me and I’ve got to do the following four things.

    1. Create Hate Incitement

    2. Look For Violent People And Enable Them In Some Way Or Other.

    3. Infiltrate Existing Terrorist Organisations With My Intelligence Services and bend them to my will.

    4. Get people murdered anywhere, at anytime, at any place, and for no reason.

    Now supposing that after killing a bunch of people for three or four decades…. So that whole communities have grown up under the shadow of my hate incitement…….

    Supposing Nato finally decides to do something about it.

    And they announce to me that they are bloody-well going to fight. And they will bloody well not take it anymore.

    And that bloody bloody. That bastard Bird he wanted WAR he declared WAR and by Golly we are going to GIVE HIM WAR (pssst….. but only in Richmond Melbourne.)

    What was that?

    “We are only going to fight Dr Moriati within the confines of Richmond Melbourne?”

    I ask you.

    Who is going to win that fight?

    The answer is that I am going to win that fight. My guys will just go into Richmond and pick off a few soldiers every so often. And we will be able to continue with killing folks all over the world. We will be able to continue with the following:

    1. Creating Hate Incitement

    2. Look For Violent People And Enable Them In Some Way Or Other.

    3. Infiltrate Existing Terrorist Organisations With My Intelligence Services and bend them to my will.

    4. Get people murdered anywhere, at anytime, at any place, and for no reason.

    Well lets expand the war then. Lets expand it to both Richmond and Port Melbourne. We’ll leave out the CBD since they have declared neutrality.

    Whose going to win that war now?

    Well I’m still going to win. I can continue with:

    1. Creating Hate Incitement

    2. Look For Violent People And Enable Them In Some Way Or Other.

    3. Infiltrate Existing Terrorist Organisations With My Intelligence Services and bend them to my will.

    4. Get people murdered anywhere, at anytime, at any place, and for no reason.

    Now what is it about the homo-sapien that makes him carry such blind spots around with him.

    Since 2003 I have been beating away at this since I could see that the dictators were not cowed by the invasion and were beginning to pick off the Americans in ones and twos.

    They just needed to pick them off in ones and twos until desensitization and then demoralisation set in.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    You see you will play any trick to ignore this basic reality Barnes.

    And the propensity of people to actively-not-acknowledge this. I mean to actively run around with their fingers in their ears in a mad attempt to not acknowledge this.

    THAT is why all these people have had to die.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 12:46 pm

  32. “On this basis it was rather quite easy to understand the invasion was not only illegal but a complete fraud.”

    No Paxton you are lying.

    1. Your Analysis was idiotic.

    2. I think you are bullshitting anyhow.

    3. It wasn’t illegal thats you lying.

    4. Its wasn’t any sort of fraud. Thats you lying again.

    Now you dolts are only saying this because they aren’t winning. And I’ve told you already why they aren’t winning.

    So lets just stop being silly monkeys and acting like we think the bad things will go away when we don’t acknowledge them.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 12:53 pm

  33. “But why emphasise that when it’s so much easier to Blame Bush?”

    CL notice how primitive and medieval my fellow atheists thinking is here.

    When expeditionary forces, with knights on horseback would get themselves creamed it was often put down to non-military sins.

    They sinned… God showed his wrath.

    Every one of these dumb-left-wingers, or at least those on the same part of the idiot spectrum as Barnes and Paxton, have accepted on some concious or unconcious level this non-military analysis.

    Bush lied. Thats why they can’t win.

    or

    The war was illegal. So they aren’t winning.

    or

    The war was sold on fraudulent grounds….. So thats why they cannot win.

    They can win and win easily. But one way or the other its got nothing to do with any alleged sin.

    And the fact is Bush didn’t lie.

    But it amazes me just how primitive these peoples thinking is.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 1:03 pm

  34. golly gee isn’t it great to have Birdy’s intellectual travails here.

    Birdy ever read Owen Harries, Cato Institute, Scowcroft, Eagelburger.

    Then go and read about projection

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 20, 2006 at 1:11 pm

  35. Why would I read them?

    And yes I’ve read some of them.

    And so what?

    What is your point. Don’t hide behind them.

    In fact you didn’t have a point did you?

    No you didn’t.

    And in fact you were being an idiot weren’t you?

    Yes you were.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 1:20 pm

  36. GMB:
    >you have chosen not to acknwowledge the reality in this link:

    I read your link. It contains exactly zero practical recommendations as far as I can see. It’s just some metaphorical waffle about how guerilla warfare works – gee, tell us something we don’t already know. So your post tells us nothing. Then, trawling through comments looking for some sort of practical recommendations it all waffles off into ever wider circles involving threatening ever more countries and ever more vague economic recommendations ultimately leading to…reform of the banking system. But then it always does!

    And I’ve never argued any of the three anti-war lines you cite in 33, you great boofhead. You’re lying! 😉

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 1:24 pm

  37. GMB:
    >They can win and win easily.

    If they could, they would. But they can’t, so they won’t.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 1:29 pm

  38. They sinned… God showed his wrath.

    Indeed, Bird. A lot like the religiosity in the global warming discussion: we’ve sinned against Mother Earth so we’re being punished etc.

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 1:33 pm

  39. Some reading for Homer: here:

    Or take “Lawrence of Serbia,” the moniker Mr. Eagleburger earned for his initial indulgence, as the State Department’s point man on Yugoslav affairs during the early 1990s while the country was coming apart, of Serbia’s Slobodan Milosevic. Mr. Eagleburger, who had longstanding business ties in Belgrade, spent the early period of the war largely ignoring Mr. Milosevic’s depredations on his neighbors, including paramilitary slaughters in Vukovar and concentration camps in Omarska. “There was a kind of preference for stability and an attachment to the old Yugoslavia over our interests in human rights,” Patrick Glynn of the American Enterprise Institute told Newsday in 1992, adding the administration had “been standing by, waiting while the final solution is played out.”

    Waiting for the final solution. That’s what the “realist” critics do best.

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 1:43 pm

  40. You idiot Barnes.

    You have to understand how you can win and how you can’t win before we bring it down to practical realities.

    You stupid idiot Barnes. How long do you think I’m going to make each individual thread?

    Do I include a road-map to victory within THE SAME THREAD AS THE THEORETICAL STUFF.

    You idiot Barnes.

    No of course I don’t.

    So what do you have to say about it?

    “I read your link. It contains exactly zero practical recommendations as far as I can see.”

    You…Are…Such…An…Idiot Barnes.

    Why are you such an idiot Barnes?

    Instead of acknowledging the theoretical matter, and admitting I’m right, You instead ignore the matter and wonder why I haven’t crammed all aspects of everything into the one post.

    You see this is why the people must die.

    This is where you admit that you want them to lose. And that you are happy for them to be dying.

    Because no matter what you will actively run around and dodge the unassailable reality of what the post contains.

    They can win easily. And the only thing that stops them winning easily is the same thing that stops you acknowledging this reality.

    How many times have you dodged this so far.

    But you want them to lose.

    And you want those people to die.

    In fact you are right now CAMPAIGNING for their death.

    Thats if you aren’t a lonely lonely man.

    Anything to not acknowledge what it will take to win.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 1:55 pm

  41. the point is Birdy is that the most potent and only criticism of the invasion of Iraq was from these ranks and only a complete moron would call them left-wing.

    CL,

    I believe we are talking about Iraq here and in Iraq he was entirely prescient.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 20, 2006 at 2:01 pm

  42. Barnes sez:

    “GMB:
    >They can win and win easily.
    If they could, they would. But they can’t, so they won’t.”

    So I sez:

    No Barnes. You are wrong. They win easily. But they choose not to. What you said does not follow at all.

    Thats just you being an idiot and still failing to acknowledge the reality that I’m laying on you.

    They can win easily but for this active unwillingness to acknowledge the reality I’ve been trying to get you to acknowledge.

    They could win easily but it is YOUR attitude which is the reason that the people are dying.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:01 pm

  43. GMB:
    >Do I include a road-map to victory within THE SAME THREAD AS THE THEORETICAL STUFF.

    Dude, everyone knows how guerilla warfare operates. What you pompously refer to as the “theoretical stuff” is a Mastermind session in the Bleeding Obvious.

    So reveal your “road map to victory” in Iraq then. Oh wait, using my amazing psychic powers, I predict it will have something to do with reforming the banking system….

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 2:06 pm

  44. Paxton you fool.

    So here’s your epistemology.

    You are a dumb-left-winger.

    And so is Elder. Elder goes to the weekly standard and finds an essay broadly dirty on Pinochet.

    He has no point but that he can go to a Hawkish yet broadly conservative paper and find such an article.

    Which means he has no point.

    Minutes later we have Paxton who also has no point.

    But nonetheless he can go to broadly “right-wing” publications and find the same sort of thing that Elder was looking for in the previous example.

    Which means you have no point.

    “the point is Birdy is that the most potent and only criticism of the invasion of Iraq was from these ranks and only a complete moron would call them left-wing.”

    So they are not “left-wing” and so what?

    You are left-wing and you are going to these non-left-wingers for advise and so what?

    Get back to me when you have a point idiot.

    But the deal is this. The war cannot be won without the acknowledgement of what I’ve brought up on this thread.

    And the failure to focus on this and pull a strategy out of this central reality is the reason the children must die.

    Now have any of these RIGHT-WING geniuses acknowledged that?

    Then why did you bring them up in the first damn place?

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:10 pm

  45. “Dude, everyone knows how guerilla warfare operates. What you pompously refer to as the “theoretical stuff” is a Mastermind session in the Bleeding Obvious.”

    No you are lying. When you finally fucking admit I’m right its customary to acknowledge that you’ve changed your mind.

    And no you are lying.

    Not everyone knows how guerilla fighting works.

    And yes you are still being evasive.

    Are you now agreeing that the war cannot be won while the murders are assisted from the outside?

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:13 pm

  46. sorry Birdy but if all you are going to be is an obnoxious pratt then talk to other people.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 20, 2006 at 2:17 pm

  47. I’ve been banging on about this for three years.

    And almost no-ones acknowledged this.

    And now when Barnes is basically shamed into acknowledging it FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME…..

    The lying bastard basically says…..

    SHUCKS. THATS OLD NEWS.

    Well it ought to be old news but the fact is you are lying and its not old news. In fact its barely understood and studiously avoided to the extent that it is understood.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:17 pm

  48. Yes, those blokes were great on Iraq, Homer.

    Especially that clever

    Rise up against saddam!

    UPDATE: Don’t rise up against saddam!

    policy.

    That went well.

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 2:20 pm

  49. “sorry Birdy but if all you are going to be is an obnoxious pratt then talk to other people.”

    Well you are right to apologize. But you are apologizing for the wrong thing. You should be apologizing for being an idiot and dishonest to boot.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:21 pm

  50. Now we have the evidence that Barnes really wants an American defeat.

    Having finally acknowledged I’m right (couched in the dodge that what I’m saying was old news and obvious) instead of going about trying to figure out what must be done he wants ME to set out a road map.

    But if he didn’t want the Americans to lose and the children to die he would be more interested with doing that job himself.

    Not setting me up so that he could then STOP thinking about the reality of third-party-enabling.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:26 pm

  51. Notice how the death-worshippers give themselves away.

    Here is Barnes in post 43

    “Dude, everyone knows how guerilla warfare operates. What you pompously refer to as the “theoretical stuff” is a Mastermind session in the Bleeding Obvious.”

    So he knows and acknowledges that the way to win this war is to stop any third-party enabling.

    But then look at this in post 37

    GMB:
    >They can win and win easily.
    If they could, they would. But they can’t, so they won’t.

    In other words how to win is obvious and old hat. But they cannot win or else they would.

    Make no mistake about it. These leftist death-worshippers want the children to keep dying and they want our side to lose.

    Thats why they instinctively put a wall of sound between us and victory.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 2:34 pm

  52. GMB:
    >In other words how to win is obvious and old hat. But they cannot win or else they would.

    Your post just talks about how guerilla war works. This is obvious and old hat. It’s stopping them and their enablers that’s the hard part, dimwit. On this topic you have nothing to say except a slow spiral towards your fractional reserve banking monomania, so no suprises there either.

    >These leftist death-worshippers want the children to keep dying and they want our side to lose.

    Hey, it’s your lovely war that’s been lost here, captained by your heroes, not mine. If you’re going to apportion responsibility for the human cost for this loss, it seems like you should be well ahead of me in line.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 3:06 pm

  53. No thats not the least bit difficult dopey.

    Once it is acknowledged that this is what must be done, militarily it is a breeze.

    But you have to allow for China coming in to bleed you while you are ending or cowing the regimes through air and proxy warfare.

    And that means as back-up the first step to winning is for the allies to ruthlessly slash non-defense spending as an integral part of their strategy.
    >>>>>>>>>>>

    Its as much your war as anyones. Except you want them to lose and you want the kids to die. Or else you want them to be fighting on our turf while you laugh at it from New Zealand.

    I know this because I felt the opposite way and acted accordingly.

    You can’t hide it forever fella.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 3:25 pm

  54. Face it Bird. Your boys have blown it.

    When, oh when, are you going to be a man about it?

    Cowboy up and admit it. You backed a big time loser. The biggest.

    When are you going to face up it?

    When?

    When?

    Instead of trying to palm us off with this PHONEY JIVE about how the US is losing Iraqcos they don’t read your blog!

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 3:27 pm

  55. “It’s stopping them and their enablers that’s the hard part, dimwit.”

    Un-fucking-believeable. There is nothing that could be easier then this.

    All it takes is a change in perception and the willingness to win.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 3:28 pm

  56. Take some responsibility, fella. Come on.

    Don’t hide behind all this fractional reserve banking JIVE all your life. It’s just your all-purpose reality-avoiding tool. Time to move past it and admit you got it wrong, no excuses.

    Step up, mate. It’s time.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 3:33 pm

  57. “Face it Bird. Your boys have blown it.”

    No your boys have.

    With that constant wall of sound and political warfare against the administration. Accusing them of being war criminals and the like.

    You got what you wanted. Daily Kos and all you other communists. Democracy Now and the like.

    You got what you wanted, the administration blinked, and the kids are dyinig.

    You got what you wanted. Now are you any happier?

    Are you any happier that you’ve succeeded and the kids are dying?

    What if it was your mother. Your relatives?

    Would you be happy then.

    Political warfare is the same as any other warfare in that it can lead to many deaths. It was the ONLY warfare that could beat the administration.

    And now that you guys are winning and all those people have been murdered I ask you are you any happier.

    And I expect an answer.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Plus just to show how serious you are about wanting all those people to die and an American defeat you now are desperate to show that its too late and that the Americans can’t win from here.

    There is no question where your North Star is.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 3:34 pm

  58. No no. I’m avoiding nothing.

    I’m avoiding nothing at all.

    The people died because the administration was backed up against the wall by the left. And like everyone else they chose not to acknowledge third-party enabling.

    Like everyone else they were captive to the leftist wall-of-sound.

    (like everyone else except for me. I wasn’t the least bit captured by you lying leftist vampires).

    YOU…. GOT…. WHAT….. YOU …..WANTED.

    And are you any happier that you (collectively) succeeded in getting all these people killed.

    Now if you say that there is some reality I’M not acknowledging here. Well thats more lying on your part but its to be expected.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 3:39 pm

  59. Bird, you’re blaming everyone but yourself cos you got it wrong. Give it up. It’s over.

    When you gonna get right with God, fella?

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 3:47 pm

  60. You’re getting hysterical, Daniel. I know it’s very important for you to believe Iraq is a “failure” – just as lefties thought the campaign against the Soviets was a “failure” – but you’re really only advertising your own Bush Derangement Syndrome. (BDS is a real psychological condition so I suggest you pull back from the brink)..

    C.L.

    December 20, 2006 at 3:52 pm

  61. CL:
    >You’re getting hysterical, Daniel.

    Tosh, CL. Just trying a little Birdspeak for a bit..;-) See if it gets thru.

    Daniel Barnes

    December 20, 2006 at 3:56 pm

  62. “Will anyone get beyond the view that “we have to succeed” to actually ask the question as to whether it is possible or likely?”

    Not only is it possible. Its easy. Its may or may not be LIKELY.

    Because the fact is that the left don’t want our side to win as we see from Barnes.

    Possible…. Yes of course.

    Easy……. Damn easy.

    Likely?……….. I don’t know.

    Because we are really fighting against Daniel and the others. And we think they are stupid. But they always seem to win in terms of political warfare.

    It would be easy if our citizens wanted us to win. But the left want us to lose. And by god they put a lot of effort in securing that outcome.

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 4:10 pm

  63. “Bird, you’re blaming everyone but yourself cos you got it wrong. ”

    STOP FUCKING LYING.

    I didn’t get it wrong. I’m one of the few people that didn’t get it wrong.

    So fucking don’t lie about it again you prick.

    The Americans were winning up until mid-2003.

    Then when the killings started the administration was pinned by leftists like yourself.

    Most conservatives thought that if they just stuck with it the killing would die down.

    Now I knew that was wrong.

    So I bought this computer and for two years hung out exclusively on American sites.

    I hung out there trying to put the message of this thread about.

    Now I can go to Tigerdroppings now. Find one of the guys that had been there since April 2004 and they, if they are not a lying left-wing bastard, will confirm this.

    So don’t lie and tell me I got it wrong you prick.

    You got it wrong.

    Or it seems rather you got it right but were fighting on the other side……… (evil bastard)

    GMB

    December 20, 2006 at 4:16 pm

  64. GMB snippets:

    “You know whats the real reason all these people had to die? Its the willful stupidity that we are seeing here from you Barnes.”

    “You got what you wanted, the administration blinked, and the kids are dyinig.”

    “the administration was backed up against the wall by the left.”

    “the administration was pinned by leftists like yourself.”

    So the reason the US is doing so badly in Iraq is because of Barnes and his ilk. Wow, Barnsey – you and your cohorts have more power than you ever thought possible. /sarcasm

    GMB, I have come to the only possible conclusion – you are brain damaged. Mentally unstable. Deranged. Bonkers. Cuckoo. Crazy. Loco. Nuts.

    Go read here for your diagnosis: http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory“>

    fatfingers

    December 22, 2006 at 2:33 am


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