catallaxy files

catallaxy in technical exile

Krillard!

with 144 comments

Have to say the continuous speculation over the ALP leadership spill has left me cold, hence the lack of a blogpost. That said, just after tea I read Senator Andrew Bartlett’s contribution to the talk. In line with my jaundiced view of the MSM generally, he pours cold water over some of the more breathless speculation doing the rounds of the ridges:

Two Labor MPs told me how they were voting. One who said they were voting for Rudd I saw listed in a few newspaper pieces as a ‘probable Beazley’ vote, and another who said they didn’t expected to receive any phone calls over the weekend because it was so well know they were in the Rudd camp I saw listed in at least three different newspaper articles as being ‘undeclared or undecided’.

Having said that, I have far less inside knowledge than any of the 88 federal Labor MPs, so I am not very well placed to know who is likely to win. Of course most of the Labor people who do have the inside knowledge have a vested interest in boosting the chances of their preferred candidate, so even though they have the knowledge, one can’t really rely on what they say.

Kruddy used to be my local member, and was a hard-working MP. He struck me as having little real personality (possibly a prerequisite for political success these days), but also as being personally incorruptible. Despite what the polls say, I do not think he has it in him to knock John Howard off at the next election, but he is clearly a better option than Beazley. I actually suspect that Beazley is not well, and expect further revelations about his health to emerge after the ballot.

Julia Gillard, by contrast, does have a personality. Whether she could knock Howard off is another matter, but I wouldn’t put it beyond the realms of possibility. In any case, hop over to Andrew’s site and have a read of his post, if only to get an idea of how little various Canberra media insiders actually know.

UPDATE: The Rudd/Gillard challenge was successful, 49 votes to 39. As more links come in, I’ll do further updates.

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Written by Admin

December 4, 2006 at 12:20 am

Posted in Uncategorized

144 Responses

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  1. The inevitable ALP leadership post…

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 12:28 am

  2. I think the big thing slipping under the radar here is Gillard’s credibility. I’m sorry but her much-touted status as a “star” is just baloney. She cannot lay a glove on Abbott and she has been essentially AWOL on the health portfolio for months and months. She doesn’t deserve any kind of promotion, let alone one that positions her as the next Deputy Prime Minister or Treasurer. Her mediocrity will do just as much damage to the pair as Womble’s poindexterism.

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 12:53 am

  3. Who loves the Howard government?

    Mrs Womble, that’s who!

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 12:57 am

  4. Yea, CL, What’s with this idiot, Julia Gillard being so highly thought of by the other idiots in the ALP?

    watch what happens when she starts talking. She has the most irritating voice and diction in any politician i have heard for a while, other than Al Gore.

    The made up working class accent will be enough to turn off most of the electorate. Nothing wrong with a working class accent. Only when it’s all made up to attract the ALP mob.

    And the the hair. What a hell is with the brioght read hair.God almighty, she’d frighten anyone in the dark

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:00 am

  5. Bright red har

    sorry

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:00 am

  6. JC, I think the ALP should ask YOU who should lead their party.

    Boris

    December 4, 2006 at 3:41 am

  7. I agree about Ms Gillard’s voice – but if she’s ambitious enough (and she seems to have no lack of that) she’ll get lessons to fix that, as Thatcher did when she was opposition leader (mind you, Maggie often reverted to her old hectoring, grating voice when under stress).

    Rudd’s clever and capable, but he’s no Bob Hawke in appeal to the punters. Still he might be enough for all those people sick of the Rodent, so I’d rate him ahead of the Bomber.

    derrida derider

    December 4, 2006 at 7:10 am

  8. Beazley seems to be the leader you have when your not having an election.

    I still havn’t forgiven him for opposing tax cuts.

    terjepetersen

    December 4, 2006 at 7:11 am

  9. Hawke had an irritating voice and no discernible achieements in Parliament before becoming PM. I think the challengers have it the wrong way around.

    The way a political party wins an election is not to go head-to-head with a strong incumbent. The last leader who was cut down in his prime was Whitlam, and even then you could argue that by the start of 1974 he was past his best. A political party wins when they shift the paradigm. Gillard is sufficiently different to Howard that the latter can’t get a handle on her. She’s not as dumb and thuggish as Latham, but nor is she as acquiescent as Beazley.

    Rudd has failed with his tactics on AWB. Downer and Vaile should be dead meat by now, regardless of their “exoneration” by Cole. He should be deputy and shadow treasurer, because goodness knows Swan has had zero impact. Rudd would also be more likely to completely rework tax andd welfare in a way that we must now realise Costello will never do.

    Labor will go close this time, but Prime Minister Rudd might be in a similar position to Gordon Brown in the UK: if not Prime minister Costello, a creature of the never-never.

    Andrew Elder

    December 4, 2006 at 10:03 am

  10. Womble wins: 49-39.

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:49 am

  11. Gee, thanks for the free lecture, Andy. Insightful as always.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:59 am

  12. Boris

    If they asked me I’d tell them to give it all all up and close it down. It’s a sewer of a party, not as bad as the Dems mind you, but its up there.

    It’s shocking that in the modern age we have a party controlled by the union movement to do their bidding on the political stage. How could anyone decent want to be associated with a party like that. it’s sickening.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:03 am

  13. Krillard won, by a fairly solid margin, too. I’m at work just now CL (cleaning up my tip of a chambers), so if you’ve got any good links pop them in a comment and I’ll include an update.

    Is there going to be a frontbench reshuffle as well?

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 11:07 am

  14. Even if Rudd is the most humble hard-working person in the world, he smirks and gives off the air that he thinks he’s the most intelligent person in the country. I can’t see him appealing to voters. But Beazley is incompetent and I can’t see any alternatives, they all are a bunch of hacks.

    I don’t have a problem with Julia Gillard’s hair any more than Howard’s eyebrows, but Medicare Gold… what was she thinking?

    Kitty

    December 4, 2006 at 11:16 am

  15. Kitty ,
    most people who wrote disparagingly about Medicare Gold never looked at the policy.
    I did and found it was in fact the opposite to what it was portrayed.

    Gillard is very good in the house perhaps the best there is however Mark Latham usually did over the Government in the house and it didn’t do him much good.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 11:21 am

  16. Actually I like Rudd despite his blatant misrepresentations of Hayek. I don’t understand this arrogance thing, I’m not picking up on it or maybe I just don’t care.

    He might even be more right wing on economics than Beazley so that’s a good thing.

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 11:22 am

  17. “….but Medicare Gold… what was she thinking?”

    Not only that. The imbicile knew about Latham’s mental state and still was his biggest supporter.

    It’s not what “what was she thinking”. The question should be what is the ALP thinking in putting her up on the throne as deputy leader. She supported a total lunatic.

    Combine that with the shocking diction and red colored hair and the Labor party is on a winner again.

    Rudd looks like a little wimp. The sort of guy who would tell on you at school if he saw you smoking behind the shelter shed.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:25 am

  18. what on earth have you got against redheads, JC? Did one dump you in high school or something?

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 11:28 am

  19. To borrow from Homer’s obsession.

    With Hawke, we knew where he stood on issues. These two crudballs:

    She’s a hard leftist who has never really worked int he real world except as a personal injuries/ labor lawyer for a short time at Slater and Gordon…. Great firm.

    And the wimp was a public servant. What a dream team.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:30 am

  20. Naaa jase.

    Red is ok. it’s just the color she chooses. It frightens the kids.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:31 am

  21. JC, please show how she is ‘hard left’.

    All Hawkie had was his ACTU presidency, Howard was a mere solicitor.

    Try to be consistent.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 11:34 am

  22. “JC, please show how she is ‘hard left’.”

    Homer, she’s a member of the victorian left faction. The Melbourne left is to the left of Castro in certain ways. Do you think she is a member of that faction just to scare the kids with her diction hand hair color?

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:41 am

  23. She was blond at one point. I have a feeling she may be a natural redhead, like Pauline Hanson. I can’t see any telltale brown roots. If she’s a natural blond, she’d be the only woman in Australia (goths apart) with blond roots.

    A lot of working class Aussie sheilas speak like that, and I’ve noticed that immigrants often finish up with ‘more Aussie than Aussie’ accents – the ‘Effie effect’. Kruddy never struck me as arrogant, just a bit bland and nerdy.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 11:46 am

  24. Pixie, as the womble is known, ran the Cabinet office for Wayne Goss, made few friends but did a very good job, by all accounts. Don’t underestimate him !

    jimmythespiv

    December 4, 2006 at 11:48 am

  25. Homer

    Has anyone on the ALP front bench ever run a small business or worked for a legit corporation excepting Slater and Gordon who are the biggest ambulance chases this side of the Pacific?

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:57 am

  26. she was an IR lawyer? I definitely hold that against her. One good thing about Workchoices is it has rendered these people redundant and thrown an entire academic industry dedicated to ‘Industrial relations’ to the bonfires.

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 11:58 am

  27. Not sure JC.

    Has anyone on the Coalition front bench ever been ought but a lawyer?

    FDB

    December 4, 2006 at 12:00 pm

  28. yep. some of them are farmers. not sure this is good.

    Sinclair Davidson

    December 4, 2006 at 12:03 pm

  29. Good point, FDB, let’s not get started on the other side though and focus on the ALP.

    Try to keep relevant and up to date, FDB.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 12:05 pm

  30. Point taken, JC.

    Wouldn’t want to come over all pot-kettle-black next time I take CL to task for doing same.

    Career politician seems the norm these days, doesn’t it? Still, for you small ‘l’ liberals, all they should need to understand is a bit of philosophy and how to stay out of people’s lives, no?

    FDB

    December 4, 2006 at 12:15 pm

  31. SMH says:

    “He and Ms Gillard arrived at Parliament House together in separate cars, and entered the building together to further underline their joint ticket. ”

    FFS. They must have spent a a lot of time co-ordinating things so they would arrive at the same time…. telling their driver to slow down or speed up….

    “Hi Honey. You out of the shower yet. I’m just putting on my panty hose. Should be out in the car in 10 minutes. How about you?”

    What a bunch of show ponies.

    FDB
    I live in with the hope that someday someone will actually bother reading the liberal party manifesto and try to act on it.

    I also live in the hope that someday, someone will read the the ALP manifesto and not act on it.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 12:22 pm

  32. Good luck to them, hopefully they create some competition in the electoral market and make things more interesting.

    Kitty

    December 4, 2006 at 12:23 pm

  33. WorkChoices is a thousand pages of legislation printed on Bible paper, Jason. It’s currently sitting on my desk as I gather up the gumption to file it.

    IR lawyers are by no means out of business.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 12:27 pm

  34. “WorkChoices is a thousand pages of legislation printed on Bible paper”

    Tear ’em both up!

    FDB

    December 4, 2006 at 12:29 pm

  35. JC, there are a couple of left factions. people like Gillard and Tanner are more right wing than most in the right wing factions.

    JC, care to tell us of a successful politician who has had such a background and how many there are in the Cabinet?

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 12:36 pm

  36. Can I just add the challenge by Beazley to crean was the most inept I have ever seen in politics.

    Those roosters should do know their business.

    They are now doing what they advised Latham not to do!

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 12:37 pm

  37. I just love government attempts to ‘simplify’ complex legislation (a project with excellent Hayekian credentials) that are such complete fizzers they’re just as complicated as the regime they replaced.

    These things don’t always fail – the ‘Torrens Title’ legislation in place around Australia was a great improvement on what existed before – cheaper, easier to run, easier to understand, administratively bullet-proof.

    WorkChoices has some good bits, and is contributing to getting more low-skill people into the workforce, but it’s still messy, complicated, expensive and dependent on lawyers for accurate use/interpretation.

    To my way of thinking, all the good effects could have been achieved – and none of the bad effects would have happened – by abolishing the minimum wage. Which would have involved a one-line amendment.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 12:39 pm

  38. IF they really believed in labour market deregulation they could have had a mere 100 pages of legislation alah New Zealand.

    Jase,
    I know an IR lawyer pretty well and they have more work now not less and most are still getting their head through the bill.

    It takes longer to register a AWA than the old EBAs.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 12:59 pm

  39. Homer
    I’m not patting the other side on the head. But at last there is a party manifesto that lends support to a government system i would like to see.

    At least some of rhse guys worked for law firms with a better reputation than Sly & Grog.

    The ALP goons all came out of unions, student politics and the public service. Pathetic.

    What’s the wimp’s claim to fame? That he can speak Chinese? Big friggin deal.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 12:59 pm

  40. well, OK but at least all the worthless crap the IR academics specialised in before under the impression that it would keep feathering their nests is now obsolete. serves them right.

    See this is the issue with backgrounds, FDB. It’s not so much that we need super geniuses in Parliament. It’s that the backgrounds of the people who enter (like an IR lawyer) have vested interests in the perpetuation of more and more legislation.

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 1:01 pm

  41. hey what happened to Brock’s post?

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 1:03 pm

  42. it has been brocken!

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 1:05 pm

  43. “JC, care to tell us of a successful politician who has had such a background and how many there are in the Cabinet? ”

    Can’t recall his name off the top of my head. The ex Goldman Sachs banker, who is now looking at the water issue. I think he understands how the world works.

    2 My former penciller (for a short time as he was real smart…. almost smarter than me, Homer) is now the opposition leader in NZ. John Key. Really good guy who I also think undertstands things.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 1:07 pm

  44. I used to send John Key out to pick up my car from the dealer when it was in for a service. Now he is opposition leader. That’s hilarious.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 1:09 pm

  45. Malcolm, tell how successful that campaign was to become a republic.

    He could even organise a branch stack properly and almost got caught out.
    Brilliant politician.

    I liked Don Brash. Lousy central banker though.
    Interestingly economist make lousy politicians.
    Bertie Ohlin being the earliest I can remember.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 1:14 pm

  46. Bertie Ohlin being the earliest I can remember.

    was he before or after keating?

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 1:15 pm

  47. Just heard the wimp at a press conference. He now talking about having a strong industry policy…. Chrrrriisstt.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 1:24 pm

  48. Jason: I think Brock decided to take his post back to draft to work on it some more. Check the relevant section when you’re logged in as admin.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 1:51 pm

  49. Here’s the best one Kev, free trade. Look at the East Asian experience.

    “Economists make bad politicians”

    I don’t know what you define as a good politician, but Hewson was very influential regardless of electoral success, I like Emerson and Don Brash came pretty close to being PM.

    Not a fan of Wolfowitz either? Political differences or have you been suckered by the bile of Stiglitz?

    Politics needs more economists. Economics needs to be on the front page (again).

    Mark Hill

    December 4, 2006 at 1:55 pm

  50. JC, on hilarious turn-arounds, did you know Rudd used to clean Laurie Oaks’s house in Canberra?

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:02 pm

  51. Well don’t leave us hanging CL, tell us more. How did this come about? When Kruddy was studying at ANU?

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 2:04 pm

  52. Heh, SL – he was just making a quid while he was a student. Must have been styrofoam cups, pizza boxes and leaked budgets everywhere back in those days.

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:10 pm

  53. Well I listened to the Rudd victory speech. A more boring collection of cliches and policy rubbish you’d be hard pressed to match. Jim Middleton on the ABC news concluded that it was “all sizzle and no sausage”. Actually, I thought it was pretty light-on for bangers as well. First cab off the Rudd rank was government partnerships for re-building a manufacturing industry. Aka industry policy, picking winners etc. Yawn. Gillard looked caught in the proverbial headlights of an on-coming train.

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:14 pm

  54. Wolfie an economist?

    Someone is having a lend of you Mark.

    Harold Wilson was an economist at Cambridge but soso as a politician.

    Hewson was too inexperienced and so was Brash.

    Kruddy cleaning the big man’s house is as old as Oakes himself.

    The best industry policy was the dropping of tariffs by Hawke and Keating.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 2:31 pm

  55. ” First cab off the Rudd rank was government partnerships for re-building a manufacturing industry.”

    Government partnerships, the Future fund and the ALP. Park ones money in another currency, get out the popcorn and put the feet up. This is a tragi comedy in the making.

    Blame these bozos for putting together a “future fund”.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:32 pm

  56. Homer says:
    “The best industry policy was the dropping of tariffs by Hawke and Keating. ”

    Knew it wouldn’t take long before the obsession came out.

    Homer cutting tarrifs is not industry policy. it’s just a polcy to do the right thing. Industry policy is a term used to describe government meddling. Stop hijacking terms.

    What is it with this obsession of yours / keating.
    It’s like when Dr. Stranglove is in the war room talking to the prez and his arms and legs start contorting as he is discussing the sovs.

    homer, you would bring up Keating even if the discussion was about cereal choices.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 2:38 pm

  57. You are dead right about the “best” industry policy Homer, but you assume good politicians are the worst politicians.

    Wolfowitz studied economics, mathematics, political science and chemistry – so he may be better economist because he is well-rounded and understands technological change and complex modelling. Nash, von Neumann and Hardin taught economists a thing or two.

    Again, have you been sucked in by the Stiglitz’s demagoguery?

    http://www.imf.org/external/np/vc/2002/070202.htm

    I think the World Bank will be in better shape than what the IMF would have been in if Stiglitz stayed on. Wolfowitz knows compromise and accepting criticism first hand, Stiglitz was stuck in the ivory tower.

    Sachs might be right that he could be used as an excuse to attack the World Bank, but would that make a difference to anti-globalisation protests anyway?

    Would you decry James Wolfensohn being your local MP Homer? Or would you want another inner city conveyancer?

    Mark Hill

    December 4, 2006 at 2:43 pm

  58. Is Homer a Freidmanite?

    “It is not that hard, mein member for Blaxland. Ve could run monetary policy, on a computer”

    Mark Hill

    December 4, 2006 at 2:47 pm

  59. No wonder he’s big on climate change these days. A Rudd scandal in the offing??

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 4:14 pm

  60. Mark, not even Wolfie thinks or says he is an economist.
    Perhaps you didn’t catch his financing of the Iraq reconstruction which is why he was ‘promoted’.

    Cutting tariffs was the best industry policy Australia ever had. Howard slowed the timetable which he has a history on.

    Friedman was good on a number of areas but I an eclectic in my tastes.

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 4:25 pm

  61. CL, that would be very easy to prove and to think Janice doesn’t like a liberal anglo-catholic.

    A bit inconsistent

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 4, 2006 at 4:27 pm

  62. You forgot this from his bio:

    http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/ORGANIZATION/EXTOFFICEPRESIDENT/0,,contentMDK:20519590~menuPK:51175739~pagePK:51174171~piPK:64258873~theSitePK:1014541,00.html

    “Mr. Wolfowitz majored in Mathematics at Cornell University, in Ithaca, NY, and earned a Ph.D in Political Science at the University of Chicago. His early interest in development issues was evident in his 1972 doctoral dissertation on water desalination in the Middle East, as well as in his first government paper — written in 1966 for the Budget Bureau on the impact of agricultural subsidies.”

    So he’s a diplomat (PhD in political science) and scientist (chemist) who is well schooled in trade and agricultural economics, agreicultural science, and mathematics. He was noted for his project mangement and financial managment skills in a country in which is home nation invaded and overthrew a dictator.

    Why is he a poor choice as a figurehead of an organisation of a developmental bank?

    Mark Hill

    December 4, 2006 at 4:36 pm

  63. Shorter Leftwrites:
    Kevin Rudd was installed by … Murdoch!!

    http://www.leftwrites.net/2006/12/04/murdoch-tears-down-labor-leader

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 8:31 pm

  64. Did you read his bio?

    Michael has just completed a Masters of International Relations at Macquarie University. Michael is a regular contributor to Green Left Discussion, a former member of the ALP, he resigned from the party in the wake of the “Tampa Affair” He has since been decscibed as a fellow traveller of the WSWS but Bob Gould reckons he’s an unreconstructed Stalinist!

    Even to make light of Stalinism is extraordinary. Can you imagine someone on the right being happy about being labelled ‘an unreconstructed Nazi’?

    You’re right, Jason, it really is bizarro world over there.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 8:41 pm

  65. CL [post 53]:
    Boring speech? Maybe …. but later in the day he came out with his Me! Boss! statement. I think we’ll be in for a few surprises and shocks with Mr Rudd.

    One thing does concern me – since it is a bit close to home for me – is whether he will be more tolerant and supportive of Viet-Nam War veterans than is Howard …. or whether he will be more hostile.

    SkepticLawyer [post 37]:
    You’re right about Torrens Title …. that’s why so many countries copied Australia. However, the rabid ideology infesting WorkChoices probably makes it incurable; we have not yet felt the full wallop of its effects on productivity …..so, back to the drawing-board.
    Wonder what Rudd and Gillard will call their version of WorkChoices?

    Graham Bell

    December 4, 2006 at 10:10 pm

  66. C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:11 pm

  67. Graham, out of genuine curiosity, what has Howard specifically done (or not done) vis-a-vis the Vietnam War’s returned servicemen?

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:14 pm

  68. “However, the rabid ideology infesting WorkChoices probably makes it incurable; we have not yet felt the full wallop of its effects on productivity ”

    The full wallop of its effects on productivity????

    Your suggesting the fact marginal workers will enter the work force will mean that productivity potential is lowered?? Is that what you mean.

    That’s a great idea. Let’s sack every marginal worker aound so they don’t impinge in the productivity aggregate.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:21 pm

  69. That Goth link is creepy, CL.

    Graham, I could have made WorkChoices far more ideological with my proposed one sentence minimum wage abolition amendment. It’d be far more successful, too. All the other stuff is window dressing.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 10:28 pm

  70. Jason Soon [post 63]:
    Michael Berrell might be echoing Laborites mystified by this peculiar leadership tussle …. I did like Jill’s comment on that link you put up – that Labor may have ballsed things up and looked around for something to blame.

    CL [post 67]:
    Jason Soon wouldn’t appreciate me clogging up his blog with a very, very long list of Howard’s neglecting, dividing and cheating Vietnam War veterans; have a wander around at
    http://www.ungrateful-troublemaker.blogspot.com
    for one of the alternative views to all the cheery official spin on Howard’s relations with veterans.

    Graham Bell

    December 4, 2006 at 10:35 pm

  71. Rudd quotes McKnight saying: “Hayek’s intellectual paradigm has turbo-charged the privatised, marketised economy, which is relentlessly encroaching on the life world of family, friends and community. The invisible hand is clutching at the invisible heart and slowly choking it”

    Where’s Hawke when we need him. I prefer the Godless left than Rudd’s kind. We now have he communitarians running the Labor party. Homer with attitude.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:37 pm

  72. Graham
    As you can see, opinion is divided here. I think Rudd might be more free market friendly, JC doesn’t. The idea therefore that Rudd is the Murdochian Candidate is just ridiculous.

    Jason Soon

    December 4, 2006 at 10:39 pm

  73. “community.”

    Can someone please explain ot me what these jokers mean by community? I have never known my neighbors two doors away wherever i’ve lived for the past 30 years.

    These clowns live in dream world. They think we live in some 19th century small village where everyone walks around minding everyones business. They try to create policies for a world thta doesn’t exist.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 10:54 pm

  74. Well, sorry Graham but that site is just a left-wing Howard-hating load of cobblers.

    C.L.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:02 pm

  75. If you move to regional Qld, JC, you’ll find exactly the sort of community Rudd is on about. I know all my neighbours, partly because of my job, and partly because country people are interested in their local community. And I haven’t been living here for 12 months yet.

    This is the kind of social structure that conservatives often want to protect, because it produces nice ‘neighborhood effects’ – low crime, plenty of childcare, clean public spaces, beautifully maintained schools, active service clubs. And the best munchies on polling day, when the local P&C turns out en masse to see who can bake the best sweets and flog them to passing voters.

    It also has its drawbacks – moving to a country town and refusing to ‘join in’ can spell trouble. A non-English-speaker will get about 6 months leeway to learn the basics before local shopkeepers start to refuse them service. A single bad debt will become known around town inside a month.

    I’m already in a couple of sporting teams, a breed-specific dog club, a young lawyers association and a local hunting association. This has eased my acceptance, but I’m still a ‘blow-in’. Anyone who is fundamentally anti-social should not move to the country.

    Of course, Rudd’s ideas about preserving these positive ‘neighborhood effects’ may be complete piffle. His misunderstanding of Hayek’s respect for the role of custom within a community would seem to indicate this.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 11:09 pm

  76. SL sez:

    “Even to make light of Stalinism is extraordinary. Can you imagine someone on the right being happy about being labelled ‘an unreconstructed Nazi’?”

    Doesn’t Steve Edwards have Pinochet as his gravatar? Lighten up.

    Berrell strikes me as more deluded than evil or sick, which is more than be said for some of his co-writers over at Leftwrites.

    melaleuca

    December 4, 2006 at 11:31 pm

  77. JC [post 68]:
    Nothing to do with marginal workers – it’s the other end of the spectrum you have to watch. How many of our best-and-brightest have read the writing on the wall and are fleeing overseas before they lose out in the next round of I.R. “reforms”? Of course, the Howard regime could stop the brain-drain by banning passports for all professionals and experienced trades-and-technical personnel under 65 years of age.

    Jason Soon [post 72]:
    Yes, Kevin Rudd would probably make a better fist of working in the rough-and-tumble of deregulated and corrupted markets than have the incumbent Resident Quasi-Socialists on the government benches.

    CL [post 74]:
    Further to the right than Genghis Khan and you call it “left-wing”? 🙂 L-O-L

    SkepticLawyer [post 69]:
    Abolishing minimum wage would indeed be simple and workable. No doubt whatsoever. Unfortunately, by the time the economic benefits kicked in, they would be overwhelmed by the military and ideological effects because it would recruit thousands of the desperate to some very nasty causes.

    Graham Bell

    December 4, 2006 at 11:42 pm

  78. Ok Sl.
    I keep forgetting there’s another place called he bush. I get headaches from country air.

    I keep having running battles with the better 1/2 about getting out the city.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:43 pm

  79. Graham: nothing to do with IR laws. They left in droves before. Look at the pathetically high marginal tax rates.

    The economic benefits of market deregulation kick in immediately. Nasty causes? Please elaborate…

    Mark Hill

    December 4, 2006 at 11:49 pm

  80. I must admit I don’t even know what the WSWS stands for, Steve M. For some reason it reminds me of ‘Women Who Want to be Women’, and the deep suspicion that there’s a Dame Edna joke lurking in there somewhere.

    skepticlawyer

    December 4, 2006 at 11:50 pm

  81. Funny you should mention the out of towners Graham. I was one of them until a few years back. Left the place for 16 years. I can assure you leaving here wasn’t because I wanted to find better industirial laws to protect me from being fired. It was to chase that elusive dollar that you can’t keep here because it gets ripped off out of your pocket.

    I think you would find the out or towners would migrate back if the tax structure was lower. they couldn’t give a shit about the labor laws because most wouldn’t be protected by them anyway. In any event most are working in places where you are an employee at will, which means you can be fired without notice. So i would think this doesn’t make any difference.

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:51 pm

  82. Munn

    where have you been? We missed your riotous sense of humor fro a while there. thank god you’re back.

    So how was the tree population out west? make new freinds with the old growth?

    JC.

    December 4, 2006 at 11:55 pm

  83. Mark Hill [post 79}:
    You are absolutely right about tax punishment driving heaps of hard-working Australians overseas. I was talking about the remnant population and now it is the I.R. stupidity that is enriching airline companies by driving even more of them overseas.

    Economic benefits kick in immediately for those who can afford them. Those who cannot afford them just have to suffer the pain for quote a long time ….. and while they are suffering, the criminal and terrorist groups come in and offer hope, a way out of their misery, and just pick and chose which out of the horde of desperate and willing recruits they’ll use today….. Bang!!!
    Not quite a cast-iron rule of human behavior but nevertheless a fairly reliable rule-of-thumb.

    JC [post 81]:
    Protection against getting fired isn’t even on the horizon; it’s all the other rubbish that makes out best workers get up and go. And what gives you the idea that all those expat Australians will rush back on hearing the glad news about the next marvellous? tax reform? Hardly!

    Graham Bell

    December 5, 2006 at 1:00 am

  84. Sure, Graham. 😉

    C.L.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:19 am

  85. Graham

    You lost me. First you were saying workers are leaving the country because of IR laws, then said they’re leaving because of the tax rate and now…. ” and all the other rubbish that makes our best wokers get up and go”

    Which is it? And what’s all the other rubbish.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:28 am

  86. sorry, meant to use quotations for

    And what’s “all the other rubbish”.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:31 am

  87. You’re a ex-digger and I would never diss you as I have too much respect for what you did.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:34 am

  88. JC [posts 85&86]:
    First wave of expats fled in response to improving pay, conditions and opportunities overseas and to punitive tax stuff-up here.

    Second wave of expats seems to be dissatisfied with intrusion of work into too much of personal life and to have nebulous fear of how the next I.R. changes will thump them. (Can only go on what I was told).

    Present government seems hell-bent on exacerbating whatever skills shortages there are.

    Graham Bell

    December 5, 2006 at 2:18 am

  89. Graham
    I agree with the first part, but the second quite frankly just doesn’t sound right.

    “Second wave of expats seems to be dissatisfied with intrusion of work into too much of personal life”

    Quite honestly, if you are after a good lifestyle where work doesn’t impinge a great deal on social life, Oz can’t be beaten.

    “and to have nebulous fear of how the next I.R. changes will thump them. (Can only go on what I was told).”

    So you are suggesting that there have been thousands people leave our shores since last March, which was when the laws came into effect. Naa, that doesn’t gel either.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 2:32 am

  90. “the rabid ideology infesting WorkChoices…”

    WorkChoices was “made” by a whole bunch of lawyers, many of who did not speak to the others. Not many lawyers are ideological.

    The only “ideology” is freedom of association, trade, speech, work..if that means the dismantling of union power so be it.

    “I.R. stupidity that is enriching airline companies by driving even more of them overseas….?” that has to be a personal rant and further proof that WC has drawn the ire of the oddballs only

    …you look at Greg Combets face on TV and all you see is a man consumed with hate. Good message!

    rog

    December 5, 2006 at 6:49 am

  91. Look at ALP IR campaign; hold rallies on a work day disrupting other workers!

    How dumb, but the unions would never hold a rally on the weekend, nobody would turn up so they do it in the bosses time. Workers time is sacred comrade!

    A lot of truckies were really pissed off at the rallies as all the forkies knocked off leaving the drivers with extra hours of waiting time – thety get paid per trip not per hour.

    I used to work at a meatworks, the boners held so many strikes and walkouts over pay (they were paid a kings ransom) the plant eventually closed down. Workers Rights!

    rog

    December 5, 2006 at 6:59 am

  92. Jason, where’s your gravatar? It works over at LP.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 11:02 am

  93. “Leader” needs ideas: Rudd tells voters to give him a call.

    C.L.

    December 5, 2006 at 12:45 pm

  94. Hopefully they give Emerson the treasury portfolio.

    Mark Hill

    December 5, 2006 at 12:47 pm

  95. agree Mark Costello is very vulnerable to a person who has a technical understanding of the subject.

    Garrett should be in some global warming portfolio.

    Obviously the person in health will have a lot to do given what the Kruddmeister has said about financial relations between State and Commonwealth.

    Easy to see how he will portray himself as the man of new ideas and Howard of tired old ones

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 5, 2006 at 1:04 pm

  96. Homer
    He “don’t” have ideas. He’s asking the public to help him out here. The little public servant is out of his depth by the looks of things.

    Garrett with the environment portfolio??? He was a rotten singer the music was horrible, so why expect any better out of the nasty little ex-green.

    As an aside, does anyone else think Rudders looks like a younger version of Howard or is that me. Take out the hair and you end up with a Howard knock off that speaks Chinese.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:16 pm

  97. Breaking:

    Rudd opens a new ALP environment office whose slogan is based on Labor’s IR philosophy.

    C.L.

    December 5, 2006 at 1:26 pm

  98. Rudd certainly isn’t the Murdoch candidate. The cover of today’s Sydney Telegraph made that clear, with its headline “Where’s the vision Kev?

    Rococo Liberal

    December 5, 2006 at 1:51 pm

  99. You nearly caught me there CL!

    Meanwhile the new policy will be to drag em out of hospital beds and give em jobs – 2 birds, 1 stone.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hidden-jobless-figure-may-reach-17/2006/03/23/1143083906352.html

    rog

    December 5, 2006 at 1:53 pm

  100. JC,

    how many politicians say they want to hear from the public.
    They say this on both sides so unless you are going to criticise both you are merely being one-eyed again.

    I said global warming JC not environment there is a difference.
    You obviously never saw them at the Antler!

    Bring Back CL's Blog

    December 5, 2006 at 1:58 pm

  101. Heh, it is still much higher in Sweden….

    Mark Hill

    December 5, 2006 at 2:39 pm

  102. I suspect JQ’s ‘underemployment’ has as much to do with high marginal tax rates as anything else. Disabled pensioners, for example, are effectively chased out of the workforce by doing any more than the bare minimum of work – they not only pay tax, but lose some of their benefits.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 4:59 pm

  103. JQ’s underemployment has also a lot to do with a government mandated minimum wage, which is something our leftist friend supports…… Not as an economist though.

    he may as well have sent his pet dog to that panel if he wasn’t wearing his economist hat. It would hae made more sense.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 5:16 pm

  104. As an aside.

    Seeing he keeps telling us that the case for AGW is closed because of overwhelming evidence, would it be right to ask if the case for a deregulated labor market is also closed becasue of overwhelming evidence?

    in other words the young prof turns up and argues against labor reform. Does this put the prof in the same boat as the AGW deniers he loves to ridecule?

    I’m open to suggestions here.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 5:21 pm

  105. I just think Rudd and Gillard are a couple of airheads really.

    I don’t think they’ve thought through anything in any real depth.

    Rudd particularly makes me think of the film ‘The Stepford Wives’.

    I suspect some fellow from the UN jumps out from behind tree and winds up a key on Rudds back every so often.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 5, 2006 at 5:35 pm

  106. That is funny CL, although I think the number plates give it away as somewhere in the UK.

    You’re right, JC – a high tax-free threshold + abolishing the minimum wage would pretty much fix unemployment for all time. Many mentally ill people, for example, can work part-time, but are not well enough to work full time. Right now they’re kicked in the teeth for even trying.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 5:40 pm

  107. You stop this fucking bullshit Jason.

    What are you trying to do here?

    By doing this you are by your actions confirming FDB’s ridiculous and nauseating accusations.

    You don’t know what you are playing with here. You are actually building a case for these holocaust-denial, holocaust-supporting socialists.

    FDB didn’t pull this bullshit for no reason.

    What did the prick do?

    Email you saying what?

    Lets see the email if you are going to be such and asshole about it.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 5, 2006 at 6:06 pm

  108. actually that wasnt me, graeme. that was skeptic. I just deleted the exchange between you and JC as it was going too far OT.

    anyway the policy will continue until you make a simple retraction. even a retraction with an explanation for your purpose will do. is that so hard? you’ve basically given us the explanation twice already.

    Jason Soon

    December 5, 2006 at 8:20 pm

  109. Well thats alright then.

    No problem.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 5, 2006 at 8:25 pm

  110. I only read your first sentence by the way.

    One doesn’t want to be misunderstood.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 5, 2006 at 8:26 pm

  111. Graeme, please, that was a really appalling way to make your point, even if it was in jest. Please retract it.

    Rob & I are going out to dinner now, and it would be nice to find a retraction on Catallaxy when we get back.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 8:29 pm

  112. Latest:

    Rudd films promo against plastic shopping bags.

    What a work ethic!

    C.L.

    December 5, 2006 at 8:41 pm

  113. Kevvie reaches a fork in the crossroads with ALP factional disputes;

    rog

    December 5, 2006 at 8:54 pm

  114. it’s two days now and Rudd is already starting to irriatate the shit out me.

    If I hear ‘fork in the road” one more time I’m going to throw a chair at TV. And what’s with “knowledge based industries”. As though there could be something else. What a dickhead. He should never have left the public service.

    Even his sidekick has started with “the fork in the road shit”.

    I’ve given him 48 hours which is too long for a lefty. he doesn’t impress, so next please.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 9:17 pm

  115. The AFR wrote this morning that Rudd keeps repeating himself because he’s not used to being quoted at length. He’s talking in sound-bites.

    Sinclair Davidson

    December 5, 2006 at 9:32 pm

  116. Really, Sinclair?

    they picked up on it too. Good to see I am not the only one.

    JC.

    December 5, 2006 at 10:07 pm

  117. I dunno, lots of pollies seem to do stuff like that. Latham’s was ‘ladder of opportunity’; Howard’s is ‘it would be remiss of me’, Beazley’s depended on where he was at the time, but the latest was ‘tear up these laws’.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 10:12 pm

  118. Oh, yes. This ‘fork in the road’ business is going to be the new ‘ladder of opportunity’.

    The ABC ran a story of Rudd sometime in the past and he was going on about a comment his father made about the ‘fork in the road’ when Rudd was 10. The fork being would he be a dairy or beef farmer (I suspect this is a farming joke).

    Sinclair Davidson

    December 5, 2006 at 10:13 pm

  119. What a load of krudd …

    Jason Soon

    December 5, 2006 at 10:15 pm

  120. And Jason, where is your gravatar? It works fine over at LP.

    Just askin.

    skepticlawyer

    December 5, 2006 at 10:28 pm

  121. The AFR wrote this morning that Rudd keeps repeating himself because he’s not used to being quoted at length. He’s talking in sound-bites.

    Those that watch the news ten times a week may care about these things but if you are serious about getting out a specific message you should be saying the same thing again and again.

    If LDP candidates don’t reflexively say “the LDP stands for low taxes, smaller government and personal liberty” every single time a microphone is stuck in their face then any campaign manager should give them a kick up the ass.

    It’s fine to be interested in content. However marketing is as much about repetition as it is about content. The audience needs to be conditioned to associate the content with the package. “Aussie kids are weet bix kids” does not mean a lot but if you say it a gazillion times we get the message.

    terjepetersen

    December 5, 2006 at 11:16 pm

  122. Generally, you’re right. But Rudd got ten continuous minutes and said ‘fork in the road’ about 15 times.

    Sinclair Davidson

    December 5, 2006 at 11:32 pm

  123. ‘Fork in the road’ may be a useful message to hammer. It kind of brings home the notion that you can change course even when you have been travelling a long way in one particular direction.

    However I accept that it may just be his brain getting stuck in first gear. I have not watched any TV news for a week or two.

    terjepetersen

    December 6, 2006 at 12:32 am

  124. Something is not right about the guy. Looks like a straight A school kid. Projects something superficial.

    Latham looked much more genuine and convincing. And he was.

    Boris

    December 6, 2006 at 12:52 am

  125. I liked Latham. He had spark. And gunpowder. And an air of excitement about him. Kind of like a kid with a loaded gun. Such a pity that he shot himself before he could really stir things up.

    terjepetersen

    December 6, 2006 at 1:30 am

  126. Rog [90]:
    Both lawyers and union high-flyers are far removed from the lives of ordinary workers so what would they really know? “Oddball”? You read comments like this from me because I am now retired and can afford to say whatever I like; I don’t have to worry about my job …. despite all the ballyhoo about the fake shortage of workers, very few workers I know feel they can afford to risk their jobs by speaking out in public. Very adverse opinions about WorkChoices are a lot more common than you might suppose.

    JC [89]
    Some overlap of the two groups. Some expats told me they left when “surprise bargaining” came in under Labor. Paradoxically, they preferred the uncertainties of working without secure tenure and with the bother of visa renewals, etc, to being treated like mushrooms back in Australia.

    JC [96]:
    Yes. That’s why voters – given the chance – will desert Howard for the bright, tough, young conservative.

    Everyone:
    Wonder if Rudd and Gillard will do anything to entice even a few expats back to Australia?

    Graham Bell

    December 6, 2006 at 8:53 am

  127. “..very few workers I know feel they can afford to risk their jobs by speaking out in public. Very adverse opinions about WorkChoices are a lot more common than you might suppose.”

    What crap! Now that you are retired you feel free to suppose that you are free?

    You can ring talkback radio anytime day or night and guess what? nobody rings about IR.

    But they ring about everything else. Like Krudd.

    rog

    December 6, 2006 at 6:28 pm

  128. “The AFR wrote this morning that Rudd keeps repeating himself because he’s not used to being quoted at length. He’s talking in sound-bites.”

    Exactly.

    I’ve been onto this ‘Stepford Wife’ for a long time now. He’s not what he’s cracked up to be at all. He’s not what Philip Adams makes him out to be. He’s barely capable of having a single thought of his own.

    He’s a wind-up doll. He’s nothing. He’s no good. He’s bureaucratic-man who makes it to the top by mouthing all the right platitudes.

    In 2003 he was a nightmare. He just got on TV and mouthed UN-supporting one-liners.

    No vision. No real understanding. It will just be an embarrassment. And hopefully he will go down quickly. But I have this nightmare that his act might actually persist.

    And while Gillard is not quite that superficial in here demeanour there is very little behind those eyes either.

    She is totally unready for high office. Mark over at Prodeo and other soft-headed types promote her endlessly…

    Why?

    She hasn’t thought through things except in the most superficial of ways. This is a teaming up of airheads.

    If we fall for these two it will be like falling for a Japanese robot cat that purrs at all the right moments.

    That New Zealand Prime Minister. Well she’s a bit of a lefty. But there’s real depth and intellectual strength to her that Gillard lacks.

    These two cannot do the job. We are entering a time when each leader will need to have the skills of a commander-in-chief.

    Beazley would have been just fine when he was younger and sharper.

    But these two do not have the goods.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 6, 2006 at 9:32 pm

  129. An “bright, tough, young conservative” speaks out in public, “objects to the Howard Government’s industrial relations laws…”

    Amongst other things.

    C.L.

    December 6, 2006 at 9:40 pm

  130. “[EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]”

    No chance. Try something else.

    GMB

    December 6, 2006 at 9:47 pm

  131. Good God, why does the woman persist in wanting to make a fool of herself?

    Jason Soon

    December 6, 2006 at 9:47 pm

  132. Hanson is Calwellite Labor, CL. ‘Two Wongs don’t make a White’ and ‘the Working Man’s Paradise’ and all that. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t periodically turn up some good points, or expose interesting faultlines in the body politic.

    Tony Abbott permanently lost my respect after the ‘Australians for Honest Politics Trust’, setting the instrument up in NSW, the only jurisdiction where champerty has been abolished. It helped to put an innocent woman in gaol and brought the law in Qld into considerable disrepute.

    skepticlawyer

    December 6, 2006 at 9:47 pm

  133. We’re bringing in people from south Africa at the moment, there’s a huge amount coming into Australia, who have diseases, they’ve got AIDS,” Ms Hanson told news agency AAP.

    Actually, I came in on a tempory visa, and was in Australia for several months before my permanent visa was approved. I teh had to have an AIDS test. Could have infected half the population before then 🙂 (chorus, in your dreams)

    They are of no benefit to this country whatsoever, they’ll never be able to work.

    Yep, I’m employed by a university. That’s not work, is it?

    More seriously, Hanson should quit already. I agree with SL she shouldn’t have been hounded to gaol. I disagree about putting the law in Qld into disrepute. All sorts of funny things happen there.

    Sinclair Davidson

    December 6, 2006 at 10:05 pm

  134. Hanson is only spruiking her book, “please.explain.”

    “I come here not as a polished politician but as a woman who has had her fair share of life’s knocks.”

    Should be a ripping yarn, eh.

    rog

    December 6, 2006 at 10:52 pm

  135. She’s back.

    Good stuff.

    Good to see that she didn’t let these commie-witch-hunters stop her from going back into politics.

    Imagine actually putting this woman in prison.

    They’d do it to all of us if they could no doubt.

    Perversely I think her influence has done brilliant things for this country. Not that her ideas had all that merit in and of themselves. But the reaction too them in the main parties to neutralise her seemed to break the multi-culti spell.

    And now, because of this, we are a mentally freer country then places like France, Britain or even many Blue-State areas of the States.

    This multi-culti business was a real nasty piece of work. Very hard to tie down but a real killer.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 6, 2006 at 10:55 pm

  136. “Tony Abbott permanently lost my respect after the ‘Australians for Honest Politics Trust’, setting the instrument up in NSW, the only jurisdiction where champerty has been abolished.”

    Yeah that was nasty stuff wasn’t it.

    But you know. I think if he knew the outrageous outcome of this action I doubt that he would have gone through with it.

    I don’t make it that he’s like that really.

    [EDIT BY ADMIN – I, GRAEME BIRD, WILL BE FORCED TO APOLOGISE TO FDB BY HAVING THIS COMMENT FORCIBLY INSERTED IN ALL OR MOST OF MY COMMENTS UNTIL I VOLUNTARILY RETRACT OR APOLOGISE TO FDB FOR MY VILE COMMENT ON THE GAIDAR THREAD]

    GMB

    December 6, 2006 at 10:59 pm

  137. ““Tony Abbott permanently lost my respect after the ‘Australians for Honest Politics Trust’, setting the instrument up in NSW, the only jurisdiction where champerty has been abolished.”

    I don’t quite understand why he has not been sued and/or prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.

    Boris

    December 6, 2006 at 11:28 pm

  138. I think the allegation is maintenance, not champerty, and Hanson had a sugar-daddy of her own as I recall. A court case might become a tug of war that Hanson & Co. would prefer to avoid for that and other reasons. These torts are considered anachronistic in several jurisdictions now, though, are they not? Probably wiser to blame the DPP rather than Abbott. Moreover, as a general principle, I don’t think we should get too carried away with assigning victim status to anyone whose electoral/financial affairs are ruthlessly scrutinised.

    I agree that Hanson broke the spell of insipid politically correct sanctimony and that her right to free speech must be insisted on by all.

    Like what she says or lump it.

    Likewise, people who wish to mercilessly ridicule her views – including her antediluvian economic claptrap – should feel free to get stuck in and not go easy because she’s the bonza brave bird of Margo Kingston’s imagination.

    C.L.

    December 6, 2006 at 11:41 pm

  139. “Moreover, as a general principle, I don’t think we should get too carried away with assigning victim status to anyone whose electoral/financial affairs are ruthlessly scrutinised.”

    If evidence is made up or is tempered with then someone must be held responsible. Mistakes are one thing, but malicious intent is another.

    Boris

    December 7, 2006 at 12:04 am

  140. Rog [post 129]:
    I see …. you can just ring up talk-back radio and have your comment put to air, just like that, can you? …..hhmmmm ….. that’s interesting …… now, can I sell you several thousand tonnes of good quality scrap steel at a giveaway price, as is where is (currently located between Milson’s Point and The Rocks) 🙂

    I’ve never had any difficulty commenting on talk-back radio whenever I have wanted to (which is rarely) but in that I am luckier than others …. every talk-back radio show has a very tight gatekeeping system; nothing gets through – or lasts more than a few seconds – unless it conforms to very narrow criteria.

    Graham Bell

    December 7, 2006 at 12:07 am

  141. The two are almost identical, CL, and as far as I’m aware she had no financial sugar daddy. John Pasquarelli was something of a ‘svengali’, but even he was stunned at how little money Hanson’s support base had (I had this conversation with him quite recently, in fact), and how wretched many of them were.

    Interestingly, Hanson herself disliked the white power loons who projected their antipathy towards the world in general and minorities in particular onto her, and one of the reasons for ONP’s odd structure was to keep them out of the organisation.

    No, Abbott behaved very badly, and there is no excuse for his behaviour, although he was aided by other individuals and bodies – of which the DPP was one.

    skepticlawyer

    December 7, 2006 at 12:10 am

  142. Graham – people are now going overseas looking for work on work visas (a very insecure situation itself) because of job insecurity here?

    Besides the few people who have already been fired (such as the few people rounded up the for Your Rights At Work campaign) who is actually at risk of losing their job, as opposed to just perceiving this?

    What people know for sure is they have cradle to the grave high personal income taxes here, which cut in very early.

    For a very long time, we had a brain drain due to high taxation of personal income. Taxes are still the same for high income earners.

    Mark Hill

    December 7, 2006 at 12:25 am

  143. Boris: The litigation was commenced in a jurisdiction where champerty/maintenence has been abolished. This page, although poorly written, gives the gist of the legal principle involved. Abbott’s behaviour falls squarely in the category of financing a law suit in which he had no legitimate interest.

    The common law principle standing behind champerty is very old: the law is public, and litigants should be willing to put their names to actions. If they are unwilling to do this, then prima facie they are unwilling to face the judicial process while expecting their opponents to do so.

    skepticlawyer

    December 7, 2006 at 12:29 am


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